It was a fantastic movement, establishing votes, reproductive rights, civil rights and so on. I think, however, that I am a post- feminist. The feminist movement was a brilliant thing up to the 1970's. Yet, I am begining to slowly come to the conclusion that much of the recent advances in womens rights have actually had a counter-productive effect. For example, the extension of maternity benefits; whilst I have undoubtedly benefited from them and am very grateful for that, recent news reports seem to suggest that women of child-bearing years are now being subtly discriminated against when applying for jobs. This is a bad thing.
My mothers generation and those before her also felt that it was their right and duty as women to stay at home and look after children. They were not frowned upon for making this positive decision. I would argue that this has changed now and women are expected to put their children into some form of care and go back to their jobs. This is a bad thing.
I have been brought up to think that as a women, I am equal to any man. This is how I will bring my daughter up. However, this does not tally well within some cultures present in the UK today. This worries me, the first time I realised this was when a door was deliberately shut on me as I was coming through it at a place of work. I complained about this, it was clearly not a 'you're a woman, why should I hold it for you?' circumstance. I was told that it was a cultural thing, not to worry, that's just how it is.
These points alone make me wonder; is there a subtle shift in society that is actually making excuses to try to undo some of the feminist movements successes?
On the door thing; I was shocked and part of that was, not only because it was cultural, but also because I actually do expect people to hold the door open for me. Not because I am a woman but for the sake of manners. The male backlash against the feminist movement would argue that, as I have pushed for equality they should not need to open the door. I actually like a bit of old fashioned manners. And, whilst i'm at it I will be very happy if you give me your seat on the train.
What are your thoughts?
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13 comments:
I have a love hate relationship with Feminism. I think that sometimes we are our own worst enemies and by wanting it all, we have let men think we can "Do it all" and I for one dont want to do it all.
I think it's no surprise that I have many thoughts on this. So bear with me while I try to address your points in a coherent manner.Apologies in advance for the length. :-)
First and foremost, I disagree strongly with the use of 'was' in relation to the women's rights movement. Despite somewhat popular belief, the movement is NOT over, is NOT irrelevant and has NOT finished its mission. The only way we are living in a post-feminist world is if you consider the right to vote, work, divorce and have access to abortion and birth control as the only issues that matter to women. Sadly, they are not. There are many, many issues that are still incredibly unfair and harmful to women, including the proliferation of male violence against women, rape and sexual assault/abuse, discrimination in the workplace, unequal pay, a culture that objectifies and exploits women's bodies, poverty, reproductive rights, gender stereotyping....I could go on and on. We are FAR from "equal" with men. Just because we are now allowed to work outside the home does not mean we have attained equality.
I would also refute your claim that feminism is at fault for the fact that women are now encouraged to work and sometimes even demonised for staying at home to look after their children. This is not the doing of feminism but of capitalism. Our increasingly consumerist, capitalistic society now demands two incomes in each family, such that you are considered wealthy or 'lucky' if you can survive on one. Forcing women back into work when they'd rather be at home is absolutely NOT what feminism is about. It is about giving women the free choice to return to work if they wanted to and to not be made to be a secretary, nurse, teacher or other limited career possibilities for women in previous decades, and not being discriminated against once they are in their desired jobs. If women are still being discriminated against in hiring practices and at work because they are of childbearing age, that is a continuation of sexist standards, not of feminism. Feminists are actively fighting to change this and support women's right to choose to either work OR stay at home. Anyone telling you otherwise isn't a feminist at all.
Finally, re: the door being held open and a seat being given on the train -- anyone who would refuse to hold a door for you just because you're a woman is a jerk. However, holding it open for you SOLELY because you are a woman is, in my opinion, sexist, not "chivalrous." It's good manners to hold a door open for *anyone* who is coming through behind you, not just women. I wouldn't just let the door swing shut in a man's face because he's a man, I'd hold it for him just as I'd appreciate he held it for me if I was behind him. But if he was behind me and then rushed ahead to open it for me, implying that I need special help with cumbersome, heavy, complicated things like DOORS, then yes, I'd not be thrilled. To me, this is a common sense and politeness thing, not a "feminism" thing. Similarly, if I saw an older man or even a young man on the train or bus with, say, crutches or with lots of packages, I would offer my seat to him. If I'm able-bodied and just have my little ol' handbag in my lap, why should I be given special dispensation to sit prettily in my seat while men who may be struggling to stand do so out of some kind of sense that I, as a woman, am biologically weaker and therefore incapable of standing or more 'deserving' of sitting down (i.e. being passive)?
Again, apologies for the long comment and thanks for initiating a discussion on this, I look forward to reading others' thoughts.
I completely agree that to a large extent some of the advances made are counter-productive. Particulary with regards to women who "choose" to stay at home, whilst gaining the right to go out and get any job regardless of our sex women are expected to view the role of "SAHM" with comtempt surely this is not equality - i'mtired of having to explain myself and justify my choices.
I hold a door open to anyone. Its manners more than anything.
Having hosted many students from all over the world, the western woman is lucky. There are many women in other countries who are still beholden to a primate society. Its shocking. Some arent even entitled to an education!
On the Western front, I do think that women have evolved so much, however, we have not shifted the share of responsiblity, so we end up doing everything!!!
A very interesting post. Well done Zoo.
Love RMxx
I think we often confuse equality with equal worth and equal rights.
There are difference between sexes just as there are differences between peoples, but those differences can be of equal worth. And we should all have equal rights.
The 'back to work' issue is case in point; to my mind, choosing to stay at home to look after the children is of equal worth to going back to work
A very interesting debate and I agree with many of the things Noble Savage said.
I do not feel any pressure to go back to work apart from a financial pressure from myself and a desire to continue to work in the job that I enjoy and feel equipped to do. We can't quite survive on one salary and when I say survive I mean we can't afford to pay the rent and essential bills without some contribution from me. But feminism has allowed me to have the choice to do this. I feel very grateful that women before me have fought so hard to enable me to have that choice.
I work as a priest in the Church of England, a job that I have only been permitted to do for 15 years. There are, as yet, no female bishops because the hierarchy of the church have not yet permitted this to happen. I am not a crusader yet I do feel a bit of a pioneer. I struggle to balance work with a young family because the job I do has never really been done by women before. It is hard and it makes me angry at times when I know that peers within the church look down on me because of my gender but the only way to change things is from within. Thus I will happily continue to gently chip away at the traditions that have only recently recognised the spiritual equality of women in leadership, despite Jesus knowing this 2000 years ago.
As for the door things - well it is just polite to hold the door open for anyone and manners are terribly underrated in our society I think.
One of the most liberating things I've discovered in my thirties is that most of the pressure I feel under comes from me. I can blame society, capitalism, religion, culture, whatever, but ultimately my desire to have it all and do it all and be the best at it comes from inside me. Feeling true peace about our own choices and decisions can be a very hard thing to achieve, but it is worth the struggle to try to liberate ourselves from our own worst enemies, ourselves.
I take on board points about choosing to go back to work. However, I think you will find that the Pensions Office feels somewhat differently. As will future employers, certainly in my line of work anyhow...
c- interesting post. By and large I have to agree with NS that a lot of the issues that feminism is often blamed for are truely the result of capitalism and our consumerist culture as well as the inherent misogyny that still exists.
However, I have often felt very let down by feminism. As a student in 'women's studies' at a liberal and largely lesbian university, the role of women as mothers was by and large neglected. Yes, there is extensive literature and work going on in the field of women's health and birth (in many cases the most extreme area where hate on women is carried out, imho), but once you have a baby it all kind of stops.
How we negotiate the world as mothers who expect equality and fairness(particularly as mothers of more than one child...I think just having one is often more excusable than having 2+) is hard and is largely unmapped...
So no answers here...
I would just like to add that where people think feminism has been "counter-productive" because a particular sexist practice has shifted in a different but still unwelcome direction, this just means that the sexism and discrimination are still there and have yet to be fully resolved. Just because feminism hasn't fully 'fixed' a problem doesn't mean it's the movement's fault that the problem still exists.
To me, that's like saying that because HIV researchers have found a way to delay the onset of AIDS but not fully cure it, they have been counter-productive. Activists in the women's rights movement are fighting hard to make progress but when you're not the group in power and even the people you're fighting for don't always understand or support you, change is hard to come by and slow in its progress.
The feminism movement has helped us have more choices today and I think it's far from over. Unlike most families, my Grandma and Mum were both working mothers and suffered discrimination for being one. On the other hand, I'm a SAHM and feel invisible in society because I don't work. And conversely I think men who choose to be stay at home dads these days suffer discrimination too. Are any of us happy with our position? At least we have choices and people many years ago didn't.
I think men and women can never be equal because we're inherently different. And why would women want to be the same as men anyway? We all still need to work at everyone having the same opportunities in life and that goes for minority groups too. The progress made in the last hundred years is encouraging. Would like to write more but toddler needs me!
Oh now this interesting. I'm happy to call myself a feminist and as the mum of two daughters, recognise they will not face all the battles we have. I don't think there's anything feminist about decrying another woman for wanting to stay at home with her children and am upset by some supposedly feminists' complete lack of respect for children - this is something Noble Savage wrote brilliantly about recently. Quite recently I reviewed a friend's book on feminism, yom may find it interesting, I think she may have stuff to say of direct interest to you:
http://www.gotyourhandsfull.com/2009/09/most-women-my-age-dont-like-the-word-feminism-and-dont-choose-to-identify-as-feminists-------i-know-this-because-i-have.html
I've never thought of feminism being about 'having it all' - rather a fight to have choices. xx
Great post and comments. I think that obviously sexism and discrimination still exist. We're all supposed to be equal - man, woman, black, white, religion' age, stay home, go to work, whatever but the fact is that we're not, or should I say, not everybody plays by the rules. Whilst some things are about our consumerist and capitalist society, most of it is actually down to each other. Take women and feminism - I know popular feminists that get discriminated against by other feminists. Get outside of 'feminism' and I see women divide each other all the time. We're often counterproductive to each other. We're supposed to be empowered to make the choices we want and yet when we do, there's often other women waiting to pick you up on the fact that you haven't done it in the way they deem appropriate. I think that the feminist movement is a work in progress. Not everyone wants the same things or they feel obliged to want what they think they're supposed to. As for the door thing - it's good manners period to hold open the door if they're behind you etc. I personally feel we explain too much and that if we're going to be 'like men', equal, whatever, then we should stop justifying or choices and existence and get in with it. I've also been taught to assume I'm equal - until some jackass tells me otherwise, I assume I can be and go where I want and make my choices. When I've found it not to be the case, (I've had both race and gender) I've dealt with it then. One day hopefully we won't have to call it feminism - it'll just be the norm...
I agree with a lot that is said in the comments and Noble Savage definitely has some very fair point.
On the door front, I believe that it is a question of *respect* in general we are talking about. Nothing to do with men/women interaction. I have been taught growing up respect for others and manners. This includes holding doors for *everyone*, giving up my seat for an elderly person, a pregnant woman or a woman with young children, etc. I am not expecting a man to give me his seat if I am fine, and I am not expecting a man to hold the door for me because I am a woman. I expect him to do it because I am a person he respects. I think that this is the one thing our society is badly jeopardising, mutual respect.
As far as feminism is concerned I will not repeat what has been said so far. I think everyone has got very good points.
Very interesting thread, thank you!
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